Krawczyk: Congrats to those two facebook MML nuts, they actually managed to pull it off! What's that you ask?
They finally fuckinghit 100k likeson their insane campaign! Only took oooh....Nine months? Suckas! I told them way back when it started keepin' it clean wouldn't get much notice! They should have had their Roll cosplayer remove a piece of clothing for every 20,000!!! Then I bet it would have hit 100k in a month! Or even a week!
BUT ALAS, tis all for naught! As if there were ever any doubt crapcom were beyond the point of no return and completely incompetent.
I decided to make this one the feature since this was the one I voted for. She looked a hell of a lot like a 'Skanky Nausicaa' so I wuz down wit that. I have no idea why she had no clothes underneath her butterfly-esque cloak though, silly animu fashion designers. Injun girl and "American Roll" (the blonde one) looked pretty fine too, and the metool was just adaawable. Here's the old contest for reference in case anyone feels like drawing moar though! I'm surprised it completely fell out of everyones' sphere of interest with 9 new chicks to take a crack at, but it seems like the cancellation blew all the wind out of the sails of basically every artist, real shame that.
...Also if anyone ever had any plans of making Unreal/HL (I don't play/own HL/gmod at all but I figure if one gets it then it can be ported easily) skins but fell apart because of the cancellation, you gots my blessin' to continue! {hinthint} If they won't let us play with them on 3ds, then screw it, we'll play them in Onslaught! Hooorah!
Dar-PowerForce: @Anon9 So if you beg enough, they'll make you games now? Bullshit, i begged for Lucas to give me Rouge Squadron III or Battlefront III and i got Star Wars Kinect.
CaptQuirk: Not the usual fucked-up stupid shit that gets featured but it is completely uninteresting and not feature worthy so in it's own way it keeps the series going.
Anonymous16: Ok so I think I know what our pheal friends are doing every once in a while they put something nice up then the next one after the nice one is totally fucked up and the cycle starts over again.
Anonymous19: a2 does the song of your people go something like this? BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ????
Krawczyk: imaaj, this isn't about MM, this is about LEGENDS, which was liek so unbelievably moar awesomer that they're stupid cunts for not milking it as dry as the others when basically every programmer at the company wanted to quit doing the endless 2D rehashes and work on this shit. But they push it back, push it back, tease a release after a decade, and finally cancel it. And they made them end #2 on a cliffhanger with a promise of MML3 too.
It essentially has a completely different audience yet they marketed it like a normal MM game 'but in threeee deee (which is what MM7 and 8 were)' and were surprised when half the people that bought it returned it.
The other half got to experience some awesome sheet, though slightly bugged da faq up by first-time 3D programmers.
It was such a hard-ass cocktease too, like they say they will let us vote on the heroine and then relegate the chick into an NPC role and throw some Ryu-lookin' douchebag in instead at the last moment. I think the entire thing was a huge troll on both classic and new MM fans just to get rid of them so they can focus solely on tourneyfag fighting games. Every single move up til the cancellation was a stealth troll, and the best way to fuck with them back would be to get the license passed to someone else and sell 2 million or som shit. Hell, they're even talking about canceling Res Evil now! They only want money-printing games and nothing else!
...Also it's not a Porkyman ripoff with chips instead of Porkyman either. Where did THAT idea even come from? Sure, second hottest Roll, first game was passable, but did Battle Network really need like 8 sequels?
Anonymous27: The glass half-empty approach: It took them NINE FUCKING MONTHS to find people who gave enough of a shit about this game to take the massively time-consuming duty of SIGNING A FUCKING E-PETITION. Not even commit to buying the game, just saying 'yeah, you should make it.' If that's the best you can come up with, then maybe this opportunity Capcom's missing out on isn't as big as you think it is.
Franky_Whiskey: ^ It isn't about how many are going to buy it, per se. Is more about delivering a product that was molded by a community. They owe them their time, they owe them their hopes.
Capcom is already sitting on a fat pile of cash releasing half-baked RE and Street Fighter gaems, so they can afford to go a bit on the red for this title. And even then it wouldn't be for long, for as soon as the gaymer magayzines started hipstering the game, everyone like good little sheep would have gone and buy the fuck out of it. If it worked for average titles like Crap of Doody and Ass Effect, this game would have sold like hot bread baked by shirtless Norwegian muscular bakers flexing weights. That's how fucking HOT it coulda been.
But they don't wanna risk shit, because it's a bussiness. There's no more innovation, creativity or honor left on the videogame developing scene. Hell, it's even called a fucking industry, corporate and balls-less motherfuckers thinking on how to milk the "gaymer" population out of their Jew Gold without busting a nut.
So what if these Mega Man Legends losers wasted their time and energy, letting their hopes soar high only to be crushed and reminded that video games are no longer made with passion and determination, right? As long as they keep 'em delicious Team Fortress hats and DLC bullcrap coming, we's all happy like nigras in massa's farm, eating bullshit watermelon.
Capcom didn't missed on shit. Complacent bitches and people who like games did. And you can't even see that...
Krawczyk: Wow, great stuff Franko. Yeah, the way the companies used to run it was they would prop up the actually fun experimental games n shit by selling lame pop culture hits, or in EA's case, sports shit.
Once they finally murdered the last visionaries at the start of the PS2 era though it was nothing but big-ass blockbuster titles and nothing else. The suits took over, and all the rest of us lost.
Do you remember all the fucking crazy shit Square and Koei put out during PS1? Fighting games, shmups, naval simulation, all done by attractive and successful Africans who never attempted these before in their entire life! And they were GOOD, too! PS1/64 era was like the 70s of gaming, wild experimentation and rampant drug use unseen since the roaring 20s.
Remember how before DMA became Rockstar they made a shitton of different games like Body Harvest? And now, just like Hollywood, they bet their whole year's income on two or three games, and at least one is a GTA sequel/spinoff!
That's what the Legends uproar was about. Capcom was the first Japanese company to become an American company, and they trolled like some serious muthafuckas while shifting gears. They promised to revive one of the last fun franchises they hadn't reworked into a shitty cutscene-driven mess, and then hit the lights on that entire branch of their company faster than Eisner murdered Disney's in-house animation studio. The end of Legends signified more than just the end of Megaman, but of Viewtiful Joe as well, of the real Dante, of Ghosts&Goblins, and everything else not ResEvil/Street Fighter/MvsC
But they're such greedy sonsofbitches they won't even give those characters up, because they're such cynical callous assholes they think they can sell those other games to the fans of their dead franchises by teasing their old IPs' leads as guest characters, half the time as DLC!
They have started an infuriating trend and it won't be long before others follow suit. If for example, Sony All-stars succeeds to the same level as Brawl, expect all IPs related to Sony All-stars to be dropped, and they will only ever reappear in that series. I'm pretty sure Killzone and LBP will be the first nuked, as they aren't outselling their direct competition any more.
Anonymous31(11): In a shortened term Capcom makes some awesome games.... usually but theyre blessed with some of the SHITTIEST management of all time. Half the time it feels like they have no damn clue what theyre doing other than just conforming to the people who buy their overhyped series riddled with DLC which is just a way to leech more money off a game that should have had all that stuff to begin with.
I miss DLC like Undead Nightmare for Red Dead Redemption. THAT was what DLC should be and Games like Perfect Dark on the 64 or Conker. At least theres still a couple creative minds like Suda51 still out there.
deathstriker: I for once I have decided to vote with my wallet as a THINKING client and not as a member of sheepish dickriders and never let Crapcom get hold of my money ever again unless they actually prove that they care for their fandom as a whole and do not treat us as a suplamental force (or even worse) for their overhyped games, which OUTREALISTICALY with the sole exception of SSFIV they are nothing to brag about.
RE:ORC was LAME, beyond lame maybe.
RE5 was bad but had something to say.
DMC I havent played these games so I cant judge for myself but I hear from the fans etc that the last game was not what they thought it was compared to the other ones
UMvC <--------LAUGHABLE BROKEN BUGFEST
SFxT The unification of equals that are more powerfull as one than they would ever be as a whole?
Ambivalent: Franky_Whiskey basicly nailed it. Couldn't have said it better myself. I hope this "ignore any games that aren't cool to the mainstream public" phase dies out next gen.
Krawczyk: @Gomenasai: I'm on 3 years console-wise myself, aside from proven properties like the Dynasty Gundam series. And the amount of games doing the day-1 DLC thing now just means I won't buy the only one I want, Prototype 2, until it's 15$ on the greatest hits or something. I don't even think it has DLC for it, I just don't want to pay full price knowing it's going to a company that don't deserve it because they pull that shit elsewhere.
Amusingly the only games that seem to be similar to the way the old days were are the games the news rags claimed would kill it, flash. Just go play Cactus McCoy and tell me that isn't oldschool SNES quality. And that Hands of War series isn't a lot like a single player Gauntlet with a dash of Hydlide. Enigmata is a pseudo-vectrex-designed take on Raptor: Call of the Shadows but entirely in space. Flash, what everyone said would kill gaming, is probably the only thing outside of puny 4ish-man studios producing worthwhile games. Currently watching the progress of Caravaneer 2 which is going to change from Wasteland into Jagged Alliance with shades of Taipan. The first one's a bit boring and blah and MULE-like, a good solid framework but not much over the shell, so that leaves the sequel with all focus going on the visuals and refinement and adding more shit to trade and construct. The way a sequel SHOULD be, not "Exactly the same with longer cutscenes."
Hell man, even EA was enjoyable back then, especially Mutant League and the Strike series.
(They were still dicks, granted, but at least they made enjoyable shit too when they cracked that whip)
Anonymous34(32): @Krawczyk: My favorite EA franchise was Burnout. Imo B3:Takedown is the perfection, nothing after that felt quite as good and balanced.
Capcom really used to be more creative and enthusiastic even at the beginning of this gen. They still dicked around with the new hardware, trying to push it to the limits with original ideas that couldn't be done before, like Dead Rising with its hundreds of zombies on screen at the same time. And then they stopped caring and started canning their most promising projects one after another...
It's been 4 years since I got an X360 and now I have grand total of 5 games for it. Played Viva Pinata to death and still love it. Another example of oldie but goody.
I'm glad at least DS and PSP had fairly decent libraries, the portables delivered the most. We'll see how it will change with Vita and future 3DS releases.
Anonymous38(18): ehhhhhh I dunno...I would rather get a hacked PSP or a Dingoo to play some old school SNES games. I have a new moboard PSP, cant mod it so its basically a glorified MP3 player and a portable porn machine atm.
Krawczyk: ^SNES on tha go, best way to play! Also avoids the hassle of buying a GBA, but not being able to play Genesis games on it. PSP > GBA, woooo!
Also if you can get an N64 emu working it's loads better for playing N64 games than using the actual N64 controller.
I'm a little afraid of how 3DS/Vita are gonna turn out. 3DS has some good shit from what I've seen but aside from Icarus they're technically remakes/ports, still enjoyable but not really super new. Vita looks like they want to make it a console-but-portable instead of having a separate library, then there's the massively overpriced memory cards, and how much junk is gonna be digital (didn't PSPgo teach them anything?) so I guess I gotta wait a couple years on that too. Also both still hold to that stupid 3 hour power limit. I wish someone would make a portable that has at least a 8-9 hour battery already.
I liked Burnout too but I loved those Desert/Jungle/Nuclear strike games just way too much, all the little humourous 80s action movie touches in dialogue and mission scenarios, like having to drive a motorcycle through a gauntlet of enemy fire and rigged with explosives, blow up an impenetrable bunker, then get picked up by your wingman, ventilate some li'l brown people, and steal the cash. I wish someone would take the vehicle hopping concept of Saint's/GTA and instead of a generic sandbox city make it more like THAT. A city with rampant crime and shooting on par with Mega-City One, and the criminals all have mechanised suits, rocket launchers, and ZSUs so you have to fight them with variable Future Cop LAPD tech or hop into their vehicles and steal them, or go knock over the local militia forts for some heavier firepower.
Franky_Whiskey: Thing is Nintendo lost what made them fun, which is house titles. They were known to play hardball with developers bak in the N64 era and hence, now they don't have the same support as Sony, who was basically "just bring whatever shit game you have, we'll port it to the Playstation1 / 2". But that never actually crippled Nintendo, and they managed to ride a nice wave with the Gamecube and GameboyAdvance and original DS.
But only because they had their own titles coming in, because with the Wii they just somehow hit a brickwall and stopped developing good shit, and instead relied on 3rd party titles (which again, they didn't had many friends in the area for hardballing in the N64 era), and besides, honestly, the controller interface was a bit beyond its time so the games aren't really using the full potential of it.
Although, if you gave me to choose between a 3DS and a Vita, I'd rather pick the 3DS. It's true it is mainly ports of other classy games and it's interface, compared to a modded PSP, is shit tier. But I'm glad I can run into a 6+ hour playing rush without having to worry about the battery draining out, and that's what a portable ought to be, portable. Besides, the Vita is just a PSP which, in tradition with Sony console making, is overpriced and full of shit you ain't even gonna use; fuck the 3 hour limit, even the Brick could go beyond that, and that shit is ancient.
But hey, I'm really nobody to talk about games. Just this last christmas I finally got myself an xbox360, so I missed on some stuff, but on the plus side everything's cheaper and I have a wider selection of stuff to pick from.
And in any case, when the bombs start falling, I know that only my N64 will give gaming pleasure, because it runs on so little power as to use it on an electric generator without much problem and its sturdy as fuck just like the game cartridges. So happy fallout, everybody!
Anonymous39(32): I love everything about N64 except its controller. I don't even mind the bad design, it's something you get used to after a while, but the buttons wear out so badly. The control stick on my original one is barely responsive now, the D-pad works but it sank in and I don't feel how it's pressed. Although my dad did hamhand it a little when he used to play my consoles back in late 90s, but N64 controller still proved to be least durable. I have a spare one that works well so far but I hate using it in fears of it wearing out as well.
Seriously, why the HELL did most games use control stick so extensively, often with no option of playing with D-Pad at all? I'm looking at you Pokémon Stadium, shit's just about navigating the menus, you don't need the precision of a goddamn 8-way stick for that! When I can use D-pad I usually do to avoid wearing out the control stick.
Franky_Whiskey: @Gomenasai: Yeah, dude, tell me about it. What I did was either replace the x-y axis craddles on the joystic with those of a defunct controler, or use some melted plastic to repair the wearing.
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They finally fucking hit 100k likes on their insane campaign!
Only took oooh....Nine months? Suckas! I told them way back when it started keepin' it clean wouldn't get much notice! They should have had their Roll cosplayer remove a piece of clothing for every 20,000!!! Then I bet it would have hit 100k in a month! Or even a week!
BUT ALAS, tis all for naught! As if there were ever any doubt crapcom were beyond the point of no return and completely incompetent.
I decided to make this one the feature since this was the one I voted for. She looked a hell of a lot like a 'Skanky Nausicaa' so I wuz down wit that. I have no idea why she had no clothes underneath her butterfly-esque cloak though, silly animu fashion designers. Injun girl and "American Roll" (the blonde one) looked pretty fine too, and the metool was just adaawable. Here's the old contest for reference in case anyone feels like drawing moar though! I'm surprised it completely fell out of everyones' sphere of interest with 9 new chicks to take a crack at, but it seems like the cancellation blew all the wind out of the sails of basically every artist, real shame that.
...Also if anyone ever had any plans of making Unreal/HL (I don't play/own HL/gmod at all but I figure if one gets it then it can be ported easily) skins but fell apart because of the cancellation, you gots my blessin' to continue! {hinthint} If they won't let us play with them on 3ds, then screw it, we'll play them in Onslaught! Hooorah!
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Where the fuck is my Shenmue game?
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It's a shame Capcom has no clue what the term "Emotion" means, other wise this would've accomplished something.
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Then there's all the 502 Bad Gateway error messages.
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I wanna try them though.
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("frikken"? Really?)
No thanks.
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good riddance
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It essentially has a completely different audience yet they marketed it like a normal MM game 'but in threeee deee (which is what MM7 and 8 were)' and were surprised when half the people that bought it returned it.
The other half got to experience some awesome sheet, though slightly bugged da faq up by first-time 3D programmers.
It was such a hard-ass cocktease too, like they say they will let us vote on the heroine and then relegate the chick into an NPC role and throw some Ryu-lookin' douchebag in instead at the last moment. I think the entire thing was a huge troll on both classic and new MM fans just to get rid of them so they can focus solely on tourneyfag fighting games. Every single move up til the cancellation was a stealth troll, and the best way to fuck with them back would be to get the license passed to someone else and sell 2 million or som shit. Hell, they're even talking about canceling Res Evil now! They only want money-printing games and nothing else!
...Also it's not a Porkyman ripoff with chips instead of Porkyman either. Where did THAT idea even come from? Sure, second hottest Roll, first game was passable, but did Battle Network really need like 8 sequels?
Yes, all black cocks all the time. When you think of hentai you think of black cocks
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Capcom is already sitting on a fat pile of cash releasing half-baked RE and Street Fighter gaems, so they can afford to go a bit on the red for this title. And even then it wouldn't be for long, for as soon as the gaymer magayzines started hipstering the game, everyone like good little sheep would have gone and buy the fuck out of it. If it worked for average titles like Crap of Doody and Ass Effect, this game would have sold like hot bread baked by shirtless Norwegian muscular bakers flexing weights. That's how fucking HOT it coulda been.
But they don't wanna risk shit, because it's a bussiness. There's no more innovation, creativity or honor left on the videogame developing scene. Hell, it's even called a fucking industry, corporate and balls-less motherfuckers thinking on how to milk the "gaymer" population out of their Jew Gold without busting a nut.
So what if these Mega Man Legends losers wasted their time and energy, letting their hopes soar high only to be crushed and reminded that video games are no longer made with passion and determination, right? As long as they keep 'em delicious Team Fortress hats and DLC bullcrap coming, we's all happy like nigras in massa's farm, eating bullshit watermelon.
Capcom didn't missed on shit. Complacent bitches and people who like games did. And you can't even see that...
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Once they finally murdered the last visionaries at the start of the PS2 era though it was nothing but big-ass blockbuster titles and nothing else. The suits took over, and all the rest of us lost.
Do you remember all the fucking crazy shit Square and Koei put out during PS1? Fighting games, shmups, naval simulation, all done by attractive and successful Africans who never attempted these before in their entire life! And they were GOOD, too! PS1/64 era was like the 70s of gaming, wild experimentation and rampant drug use unseen since the roaring 20s.
Remember how before DMA became Rockstar they made a shitton of different games like Body Harvest? And now, just like Hollywood, they bet their whole year's income on two or three games, and at least one is a GTA sequel/spinoff!
That's what the Legends uproar was about. Capcom was the first Japanese company to become an American company, and they trolled like some serious muthafuckas while shifting gears. They promised to revive one of the last fun franchises they hadn't reworked into a shitty cutscene-driven mess, and then hit the lights on that entire branch of their company faster than Eisner murdered Disney's in-house animation studio. The end of Legends signified more than just the end of Megaman, but of Viewtiful Joe as well, of the real Dante, of Ghosts&Goblins, and everything else not ResEvil/Street Fighter/MvsC
But they're such greedy sonsofbitches they won't even give those characters up, because they're such cynical callous assholes they think they can sell those other games to the fans of their dead franchises by teasing their old IPs' leads as guest characters, half the time as DLC!
They have started an infuriating trend and it won't be long before others follow suit. If for example, Sony All-stars succeeds to the same level as Brawl, expect all IPs related to Sony All-stars to be dropped, and they will only ever reappear in that series. I'm pretty sure Killzone and LBP will be the first nuked, as they aren't outselling their direct competition any more.
I miss DLC like Undead Nightmare for Red Dead Redemption. THAT was what DLC should be and Games like Perfect Dark on the 64 or Conker. At least theres still a couple creative minds like Suda51 still out there.
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RE:ORC was LAME, beyond lame maybe.
RE5 was bad but had something to say.
DMC I havent played these games so I cant judge for myself but I hear from the fans etc that the last game was not what they thought it was compared to the other ones
UMvC <--------LAUGHABLE BROKEN BUGFEST
SFxT The unification of equals that are more powerfull as one than they would ever be as a whole?
Good posts @Krawczyk: and @Franky_Whiskey: props to the 90's era of games where
REAL INVESTMENTS where made.
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Amusingly the only games that seem to be similar to the way the old days were are the games the news rags claimed would kill it, flash. Just go play Cactus McCoy and tell me that isn't oldschool SNES quality. And that Hands of War series isn't a lot like a single player Gauntlet with a dash of Hydlide. Enigmata is a pseudo-vectrex-designed take on Raptor: Call of the Shadows but entirely in space. Flash, what everyone said would kill gaming, is probably the only thing outside of puny 4ish-man studios producing worthwhile games. Currently watching the progress of Caravaneer 2 which is going to change from Wasteland into Jagged Alliance with shades of Taipan. The first one's a bit boring and blah and MULE-like, a good solid framework but not much over the shell, so that leaves the sequel with all focus going on the visuals and refinement and adding more shit to trade and construct. The way a sequel SHOULD be, not "Exactly the same with longer cutscenes."
Hell man, even EA was enjoyable back then, especially Mutant League and the Strike series.
(They were still dicks, granted, but at least they made enjoyable shit too when they cracked that whip)
Capcom really used to be more creative and enthusiastic even at the beginning of this gen. They still dicked around with the new hardware, trying to push it to the limits with original ideas that couldn't be done before, like Dead Rising with its hundreds of zombies on screen at the same time. And then they stopped caring and started canning their most promising projects one after another...
It's been 4 years since I got an X360 and now I have grand total of 5 games for it. Played Viva Pinata to death and still love it. Another example of oldie but goody.
I'm glad at least DS and PSP had fairly decent libraries, the portables delivered the most. We'll see how it will change with Vita and future 3DS releases.
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Also if you can get an N64 emu working it's loads better for playing N64 games than using the actual N64 controller.
I'm a little afraid of how 3DS/Vita are gonna turn out. 3DS has some good shit from what I've seen but aside from Icarus they're technically remakes/ports, still enjoyable but not really super new. Vita looks like they want to make it a console-but-portable instead of having a separate library, then there's the massively overpriced memory cards, and how much junk is gonna be digital (didn't PSPgo teach them anything?) so I guess I gotta wait a couple years on that too. Also both still hold to that stupid 3 hour power limit. I wish someone would make a portable that has at least a 8-9 hour battery already.
I liked Burnout too but I loved those Desert/Jungle/Nuclear strike games just way too much, all the little humourous 80s action movie touches in dialogue and mission scenarios, like having to drive a motorcycle through a gauntlet of enemy fire and rigged with explosives, blow up an impenetrable bunker, then get picked up by your wingman, ventilate some li'l brown people, and steal the cash. I wish someone would take the vehicle hopping concept of Saint's/GTA and instead of a generic sandbox city make it more like THAT. A city with rampant crime and shooting on par with Mega-City One, and the criminals all have mechanised suits, rocket launchers, and ZSUs so you have to fight them with variable Future Cop LAPD tech or hop into their vehicles and steal them, or go knock over the local militia forts for some heavier firepower.
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But only because they had their own titles coming in, because with the Wii they just somehow hit a brickwall and stopped developing good shit, and instead relied on 3rd party titles (which again, they didn't had many friends in the area for hardballing in the N64 era), and besides, honestly, the controller interface was a bit beyond its time so the games aren't really using the full potential of it.
Although, if you gave me to choose between a 3DS and a Vita, I'd rather pick the 3DS. It's true it is mainly ports of other classy games and it's interface, compared to a modded PSP, is shit tier. But I'm glad I can run into a 6+ hour playing rush without having to worry about the battery draining out, and that's what a portable ought to be, portable. Besides, the Vita is just a PSP which, in tradition with Sony console making, is overpriced and full of shit you ain't even gonna use; fuck the 3 hour limit, even the Brick could go beyond that, and that shit is ancient.
But hey, I'm really nobody to talk about games. Just this last christmas I finally got myself an xbox360, so I missed on some stuff, but on the plus side everything's cheaper and I have a wider selection of stuff to pick from.
And in any case, when the bombs start falling, I know that only my N64 will give gaming pleasure, because it runs on so little power as to use it on an electric generator without much problem and its sturdy as fuck just like the game cartridges. So happy fallout, everybody!
Seriously, why the HELL did most games use control stick so extensively, often with no option of playing with D-Pad at all? I'm looking at you Pokémon Stadium, shit's just about navigating the menus, you don't need the precision of a goddamn 8-way stick for that! When I can use D-pad I usually do to avoid wearing out the control stick.
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Bit uncomfortable, but it works